Transcript

Justin Harlan:
Hey, I'm Justin Harlan, Managing Director of Tulsa Remote, and we are here for another episode of Remote With. Today, we have a special edition that is focused on expert knowledge. Given the plugged-in conference that we have going on this week, I'll be talking with Danielle Farage, who's an expert in remote work, learning, as well as Gen Z, specifically as employees. And I'm so thrilled to jump in with you. Danielle, thanks so much for being here and traveling all the way to Tulsa for this week. We really appreciate you.

Danielle Farage:
It is a pleasure. I've heard so much about Tulsa, and I'm just excited to explore it.

Justin Harlan:
Why don't you just set the table a bit by sharing a bit about your background and kind of the things that you are most passionate about as it relates to remote work, and then dig a little bit deeper from there.

Danielle Farage:
So the story goes, I grew up in New York City, super duper melting pot, and I went to a small Jewish private school. I have two older siblings, so I come from a really small community. And when I went to college, I kind of followed my siblings' footsteps, went to USC, studied psychology. While I was there, you know, you always look to your siblings to avoid any mistakes.

Justin Harlan:
If you're not the firstborn, you know, then you don't have that advantage.

Danielle Farage:
The benefit of being the third kid for sure. And so I looked to them and I sort of noticed that my siblings seemed not super happy at work. And I saw the impact of that on their lives. And I had this belief, which I still do, that work should really enhance your life and not detract from it. And I sought out to understand why they were like people are not always happy at work. And so I figured, you know, oh, it's the leadership who are at the helm of these companies likely don't understand fully the people that they are leading. And it all starts from the top. I knew that from very early on. Both my parents are entrepreneurs. And so I sought out to study psychology so that I could walk into any room, talk to anyone about what matters to them, and bring that back to the C-suite to help them make better decisions about how to lead the company.

Danielle Farage:
Obviously, that is a very naive, you know, kind of take on how things actually work in the corporate world. But I like to think that I do that now through my content, through my public speaking and through community building. Social media, it gives people a platform. It gives people the ability to share their own experiences, their personal challenges, wins, you know, their own tips, whatever we've learned ourselves firsthand. And going through graduating into the pandemic, then going into a toxic workplace, going into a really great one. I've learned a lot about what a Gen Zer might want or not want from work, what we might want from leadership and what we might not want. So I feel as though there aren't many Gen Zers speaking up publicly because they work a lot of the time for companies that don't necessarily want them to speak very loud outside. And so I find it as my duty to do so because I can.

Justin Harlan:
It's also fascinating to hear the value that you had, even at an early age of like work shouldn't be the most important thing to me, but kind of enhance everything else that I'm doing. And then the pandemic happened, which all of the learning and studying that you had been doing to kind of go into this workforce drastically changed and shifted. And I think one of the beauties of remote work, in my opinion, is the way in which it does enhance our ability to live freely and the freedom and flexibility that just the structure of the day allows. I'm curious, just from your perspective, when was the pandemic moment for you and how did that change the ways in which you were viewing your job as an employee or how you were going to enter the workforce at that time?

Danielle Farage:
I was on my senior year spring break, In Utah, skiing with my mom, we were on our way back from the mountain on the second day of skiing. And as we were on the shuttle, the mountain closed. That was the end of my college experience, basically, in person, right? So I went to USC and then I was in Utah. I flew back to New York. My sister, who lived in LA at the time, packed up all my stuff and shipped it to me in seven boxes. And that was the end of my college experience. I graduated on the couch of my parents' house. And it was really humbling after seeing both my siblings, my sister twice, graduate from USC in person. It shaped the way that I viewed everything. It shaped the way that I viewed education. Suddenly, everything could be remote. I mean, every single person I graduated with was impacted by the pandemic. We went from being in person, doing classes, maybe working an internship, which I was at the time, to graduating on our couches. Many people's jobs were pushed out six months to maybe a year with no real certainty of when they'd actually start. Some people had offers rescinded. I mean, it was a really scary time, probably similar to when millennials graduated, but probably not as bad. It's just different. You can't necessarily compare.

Justin Harlan:
But I do think it plays a role in how we all navigate work and the things that matter to us. And so that's why I'm trying to pull it out because you were not alone in that, where there's so many folks that are now graduating from their couch and then entering into a workforce with a specific mindset and lived experience. And so what was that first work experience like? And as you entered the workforce, was that primarily from home or how did you navigate that?

Danielle Farage:
It was from home. I was navigating a lot of like, you know, personal stuff going on as you usually do in your 20s. And probably the biggest learning curve for me was you think that you're going to graduate and go into the workforce. You're going to have a network and you're going to be out there and you're going to get your name out there. And, you know, you're going to have that real life experience, walk in the door. For Gen Z, a lot of the time it was we're opening our laptops, whether you were going to school and in college for the first time or you were starting your work for the first time. And in a lot of cases, these companies weren't well equipped to do that, to have someone start remotely. And so it was a really poor experience for a lot of us. And not only that, but we lost out on many critical years of doing that networking and building relationships. And so for me, as someone who was always proactive about my career, right, I was thinking about this from my sophomore year of college.

Danielle Farage:
Most people weren't. And so for me, it was kind of natural to hop on Clubhouse and make friends and and quickly sort of navigate through LinkedIn and then start to create content and realize that my voice was one that needed to be heard. But for many people, it wasn't the case. And so there was a lot of isolation. There was a lot of, you know, lack of motivation. I don't know how to advance. I don't know what my career means anymore. And just a lot of uncertainty that many companies weren't well-equipped to address or proactively navigate. And I think that then brings us to fast forward to today. What are we seeing in the workplace? What are the challenges? We're seeing a lot of lack of communication. People don't know how to talk to each other and communicate. And that's why I do a lot of the work that I do between generations. And secondly, young people, we have this bad rap. Obviously, every generation gets it, right. They all get the lazy, entitled, and what not. Andwhat I've noticed, though, is that one of the narratives that's completely false was Gen Z wants to just sit home and be lazy and, you know, work from home all the time, which, by the way, is such an unfair argument about working from home equals being lazy.

Justin Harlan:
And research actually shows complete opposite of that.

Danielle Farage:
Exactly, exactly. But that aside, it's also we crave the learning, the development, the guidance, the mentorship that we did not have in those critical years, whether it be you're in college or you're in your early career.

Justin Harlan:
I think that what we've seen so often is that companies don't really put much effort into figuring that out. And then they're surprised when it doesn't go well. Oh, wow, something I didn't really try to do well didn't go well. And then instead of making adjustments and tweaking the ways in which they're doing all those things, what do they say? They're just like, all right, let's just go back to the old way. Come on back into the office where it was apparently going so well before. I think the intentionality around these things in a remote work setting are the companies that have risen to the top and been able to then access all the benefits while figuring out something that is very challenging, something we had to experience together pretty much overnight for so many of us, yourself included. So were you working for a New York City company while you were living in New York working remotely?

Danielle Farage:
Yeah.

Justin Harlan:
So did you have opportunities to see colleagues and coworkers?

Danielle Farage:
No, because it was very much during the pandemic. And then that company got acquired, which I can go into a little bit of what was so great about that company in a second, but then went into working for a Parisian tech startup that was based in Paris where I was going, it was remote first. I was actually going to Paris for like three weeks at a time and then doing some other travel in between and kind of being nomadic, which was incredible because I was also bringing people along for the ride with me and saying, here's what's possible. Here's the array of experiences that you could have. And I'm just showing you one of them.

Justin Harlan:
Right.

Danielle Farage:
But I never met a co-worker from that company until... Maybe a year and a half later.

Justin Harlan:
Wow. Okay. So you had a great experience and you had a not so great experience. So pull out for us, like from a remote work culture, leadership perspective, like what were the differences in what you experienced in those two companies? And what did you learn about the type of people that you want to work with or for or whatever down the road?

Danielle Farage:
So I would say the first thing was flexibility of timing. Let's say you're working for a company that is based in San Francisco, I was in New York. Basically, having me work from 12 to 8 is very different from having me work from 9 to 5 or normal work hours because if you're working from 12 to 8, you don't really have a social life. So that's one thing is the flexibility piece of when I'm getting my work done was a huge one for me.

Justin Harlan:
And culturally, what did the leaders do to allow you as the employee to know that this was flexible? You could make your own decisions.

Danielle Farage:
I think first it's, you know, doing daily standups. So we had, you know, a 9:30 standup. And that, you know, that would be the signal to everyone that the day was started and that, you know, whatever you presented on that call was what you were going to get done. And at the end of the week, it was like, you know, we had a Friday call to kind of wrap up the week and every department reported on their progress and being a part of that call, too. I think everyone should be a part of that call. People should have the ability to participate. That's another thing is feeling very much a part of the team rather than at the bottom of a totem pole. There are actions and behaviors that you can do to show to someone that they actually matter, whether it be inviting them to a call with clients or asking them to be part of partnerships or asking them to contribute in a new and different way that they might not expect, but also not volun-telling someone what to do, but rather asking them if they would like to. I think that's another one of opting in versus opting someone in.

Justin Harlan:
Giving somebody the choice.

Danielle Farage:
100%.

Justin Harlan:
As opposed to making it a requirement. And then I hear like, even from in a remote work setting, like a desire for leadership to like understand you and build like that empathy. And then the cadence of like showing up at a specific time to know that you're getting started. And then so after that stand up, like, what was the culture like as it relates to like when you were doing your work from there or like accountability?

Danielle Farage:
It was very team centric, right? Like you had your accountability within your team. And then you had accountability within like the projects that you were working on. So I was working a lot with like the CEO and the chief of staff on things like thought leadership. And so I was responsible for navigating that project while also navigating my marketing responsibilities. And I think that them giving me the opportunity to even get involved in other projects, showed that they cared about my personal growth and development. One thing that really changed the game from day one was having my manager sit down with me and ask me to put together a list of eight ways or eight to 10 ways in which I would like to grow in the next six months. That not only had me thinking about, well, what are my goals? Because I think a lot of the time goal setting does get glossed over from a personal and professional standpoint. But them sitting down to say, hey, how do you want to grow? And then going through every single line item to ask me and help me, okay, how can we get this done? Let me introduce you to this person. Let me make sure you have time to work on this other project. And so that proactivity really enabled me to grow professionally, but also personally and like asking for what I wanted and keeping myself accountable to my own goals. Like it was such a huge learning opportunity for me.

Justin Harlan:
And then on the flip side, like in the company that you worked with that didn't do all of this so well... Like, what was the culture like there? And how did you experience that in the time that you were with them?

Danielle Farage:
A lot of like, I'll help you do this and no action, right? It's like a lot of words, no action, not much transparency with the way that things are done, kind of glossing over bigger issues and concerns that would be brought up by not just me, but by the rest of the team and also belittling and just toxic behaviors of like attacking someone's character and knowing that someone... Youyou know I was fresh out of college like I don't I didn't know the difference between right and wrong from a manager standpoint. I was just talking about this on another podcast about dating and relationships because it was kind of like I broke up with my toxic ex-boyfriend and my toxic boss the same 24 hours and that experience of like, being in college, kind of getting to know yourself, and feelingandfeeling like you you know yourself better... Like you're maybe a little bit more of a person now. And then graduating and going into the working world, it's like putting a, you know, from big fish to a small pond tosmall fish in a big pond but in a different way of like you no longer know how to operate because you've never been in this context before. Or if you have like for me, I'veworked many internships but Ihad never worked in internship you know, full-time or with someone who, you know, was... Toxic.

Justin Harlan:
And the red flags are going off, which I think is for one of the things that I have come to love and understand about remote work and remote work leadership specifically is that, we could have had the same conversation about a really great job you had in the office and a really bad job you had in the office. And probably some of the same trends would have come out, right? In the great job, you had very clear expectations. You had a manager that cared about you. You had opportunity to shine in the work that you were doing. You felt empowered to do the work without somebody hand-holding you the whole time. And the complete opposite was true in your bad job. So what do you think is most difficult for leaders in remote work settings specifically to bring everything you just said was so beautiful about that role to life in their day-to-day work or their work culture? Why does remote work make it harder and how can we work to fill that gap together?

Danielle Farage:
So I'll start with the challenging part. I was at a speaking engagement in New York City a few months ago. And I got to host a roundtable. And I spoke to this woman who she's a mentor to several Gen Zers at work. And the table topic was like, let's talk about Gen Z at work. So that was really that was it. I knew that people... I knew that people were going to bring interesting questions. And so she works at a big company. It's in a ton of hot water. And you could kind of tell like internally things are whack and so her question was like you know I'm mentoring this kid and he really wants to improve and get promoted and you know he basically wants to get promoted, that was what she said. But he's not doing the work, he's not putting in the hours, he's not putting in the hard work. And so that brings the question up of like, what does hard work actually mean? What does it look like? How do different generations define it? Because we have different generations of hard work. My grandfather worked in HR and he put in the hard work. He put in his 30 years at a company and went up the corporate ladder and it was a gratifying experience for him. But that same experience isn't realistic anymore.

Justin Harlan:
Right, right.

Danielle Farage:
That same career ladder, the same progression doesn't exist. And so I asked, you know, well, what's the working dynamic? And she said, oh, we're a remote company. You know, it's tough because we went from not being remote to being remote. And this kid started remote and he's been remote the entire time and his team's remote, whatever. And I said, so let me ask you this question.

Danielle Farage:
In the context of work, does he understand what's required to actually advance in the company? Is someone teaching him that? Is there someone to learn from and to actually show the behaviors that would lead to a promotion? And her answer was basically no. And so I think that's one of the biggest challenges specifically for this generation is we graduated. We're working remotely. No one really taught us how to work remotely. we're trying to figure it out. We're also trying to get leadership and guidance but we also are financially stressed. We want independence, we want high salaries, we want to advance quickly. We see the rate of change of everything going on around us and we're asking, well why can't it be faster, why can't we progress faster? I'm doing more work, I'm doing this, I'm doing that and doing this fast. Doesn't that earn me a promotion? And so I think there's kind of this question of what are we valuing? What are we placing value on as companies from a promotion standpoint? And I think that's really difficult, too, when you're in a remote environment of like we've always rewarded people through promotions by doing the hard work, but we're not really defining what that means, what that looks like, how we evaluate it. None of that is reallyLike none of that is really, super obvious.

Justin Harlan:
Right. Because it's obviously much harder to see too. And in many ways, your generation has been thrown into the game per se, and the rules have changed in many ways. I think oftentimes leaders that have learned how to work or play the game a specific way now expect those that are entering in to do it the same way, but you can't see it as clearly and you're not setting expectations as clearly and at the very like foundational level so many things have changed about the rules of the game and how do we adapt and adjust as leaders and organizations there. If you were to say five ten years down the road what is still kind of intact from today or what has evolved what predictions would you make?

Danielle Farage:
One of the things that Ii am seeing a lot more of is from an employer branding standpoint. Companies are... obviously everything's moving to video So more companies are producing video, they're incorporating it into their marketing strategies, but also their employer strategies and branding specifically. I think that we're going to see a lot more young professionals, a lot more people generally who work for companies being brand ambassadors of those companies. We've started to see it already. And as a marketer by like trade. And obviously I have a background in psychology and sort of this future of workspace, but I also have a marketing background and I also am a community builder. And so for me, it's super fascinating to put my background and this interdisciplinary nature of how I view things into the context of organizations, because not only do I think that people are gonna be walking advertisements of brands, But I also think that there's going to be maybe stronger community ties within companies. I mean, this is my optimistic viewpoint.

Justin Harlan:
That's good. We love optimism here.

Danielle Farage:
Yeah, I think so. Because at the same time, I think there has been a trend of organizations recognizing that people are people and they're going to have side hustles. They have side hustles. I think it's like 75% of Gen Z either has a business or plans to start a business. And so not only out of necessity, but also because we have all these skills, we want to put them to use. We want to develop multiple streams of income. We're not trying to work until we're 65. We're trying to retire early. And I think that there's generally more of a recognition, especially from those more progressive companies from a future of work standpoint, that recognize that people will have those other things that they do and are cool with it as long as there's no conflict of interest. And I think most people are capable of making those judgments and being respectful in that way.

Justin Harlan:
I'd love to shift to Gen Z and offer up a couple perspectives. So I'd love to hear from you how employers should be thinking about Gen Z employees. And then I'd also love for you to speak to Gen Z employees and how they can navigate today's workforce. So let's start with the employers. If you were to give one piece of advice to somebody leading an organization that is hiring a bunch of Gen Z employees, what should they consider? What should they think about that's going to help them to be as successful as possible?

Danielle Farage:
I would say focus on the individual. I was just talking to someone who she runs a community for people who work in retail and who hire a lot for retail businesses. And one of the things she said was a lot of the time employers want to be super creative and think of these crazy benefits that people should want.

Danielle Farage:
Without actually asking them and thinking of the simple things first, like flexible shifts or teaching English classes. Like Gen Z is the most diverse generation in history in the U.S. And so with that, you have a lot of backgrounds, cultures, religions, languages. We've done a good job of highlighting it. We haven't done a great job of celebrating it. And I think the point of celebration is really to bring people together to teach each other. I think you take ERGs, for example. ERGs typically are a vehicle in which people within a diverse group can relate to each other. And they also are in charge a lot of the time of educating others. And so wouldn't it be great if we could find some way to bring ERGs together and like celebrate the ways that were similar, right? And so I think there's opportunity there to focus on the commonalities that we share while also recognizing our individuality. Going back to Gen Z, I think if you recognize the individual and you sit down and proactively ask, what are you looking to get out of this job? That's such a straightforward question.

Justin Harlan:
Right.

Danielle Farage:
I think that they'll come to the table and be honest. And if you're OK with that honesty and you're ready for that answer, you know, the answer could be, I just want to make more money. Okay, so then you know. Then you have that expectation. But I think for a lot of the time, employers have this desire and kind of, in my opinion, a misguided belief that their employees will be similar to them, that they'll care as much, that they'll treat it like their baby, right? Because those are the types of workers that boomers and Gen Xers were. But you have a new workforce. And of course, that sort of passion for work can be a reality, but a lot of the time it isn't. And so being okay with that and being able to accept people as they are and kind of meet them where they are, I think is one of the biggest things that employers should know when they hire Gen Z.

Justin Harlan:
I also want to pull out that in order to understand who employees are, you also have to have leaders and managers that are willing to like, ask those questions and listen, the desire to understand who somebody is, is also a skill in itself, that shows up in culture and workplace in so many ways, but then pulling out the commonalities and the differences and acknowledging those across the organization, I think is so powerful, and allows everybody to kind of put their best foot forward the majority of the time. Which also feels good and affirming to us as employees, and allows that employer to take that really critical first step of just like listening to who you are and what matters most to you in the workforce. And what about the employees? So if you were to give advice to a room full of Gen Z, which I'm sure you have many times, what would you tell them? Because, you know, it's not like our workforce is going to shift overnight. And I'm sure you feel that, you know, it's oftentimes like you have a chisel and you're just kind of like knocking away at the rock. But what guidance would you give them as they enter into the workforce? And maybe even if they don't have an employer that's doing all the things that you just said employers should do, how should Gen Z employees be prepared to enter in the workforce today?

Danielle Farage:
Growing up in a time in history that is, uniquely challenging, right? We have the environment. Many Gen Zers are anxious about the environment every day. We wake up, you know, with this desire to change the world and leaders a lot of the time who are putting their foot down and like not really involving us in the conversation. However, I think there's been a massive shift. Like I think that's really started to change. We're seeing a lot more youth in the UN, like those types of programs. One of the most powerful things that as a Gen Z-er that you could do is to focus on the impact that you want to create and find ways internally to channel it without making more problems for people. So being solutions oriented versus problems focused. As an individual within an organization, you know that'll help you stand out atwhatever level you are. But if people, and I think a lot of the time this happens, is other generations we all have our biases we all have our opinions of like...

Danielle Farage:
Boomers are this way, Gen X is this way, oh like typical millennial, typical Gen Z. For Gen Z, I think a lot of the time we're perceived as like the troublemakers. And so, as a Gen Zer, O|I think the best thing that you can do is present solutions instead of just coming up with and presenting problems all the time. I think that goes from the point of your interactions with your team of like, I noticed this specific problem, you know, let me point it out to everyone versus I noticed this problem. Here are five ways that I came up with that we could address it. I think that goes a long way, not just within your team, but to the rest of the company. It's naturally when you see people who are solutions focused, you want to be that way. You want to show up that way. So being proactive.

Justin Harlan:
Yeah. And it's empowering to the values that you pointed out earlier around empowerment and the employee playing a role in that solution. I think it also helps you stand out as somebody who is giving that thought and moving the work forward, which allows you to shine. And instead of just calling out, it's actually paired with something that we can now go and do, which makes leadership's job much easier too, because you've done a lot of the dirty work for them.

Danielle Farage:
And they'll like you more.

Justin Harlan:
Yeah, exactly.

Danielle Farage:
Be the change you wish to see in the world. Let's not just talk about climate change. Let's stop buying fast fashion. It's a great example.

Justin Harlan:
It is fascinating. When I graduated from college in 2009, the economy was down, but there was also so much of our focus that was on very local problems. So Teach for America was where I started my career. And education was a huge focus. It was like, how do we fix education at the school right down the road? It was so localized. But I know that research shows that your generation tends to care much more about global issues. You pointed out environmentalism. So it's interesting just to think about the things that make all of that shift as we go through life.

Danielle Farage:
Funny enough, there was a research report that literally just came out that showed that 39% of Gen Zers would prefer to work for a small business over a big corporation. And obviously, we know that most businesses in the US are small. The reasons were one, social impact. Two, the proximity to home. A lot of the time, Gen Zers do still live at home, like majority. And the third one was the opportunity for learning and development. So I find it really interesting that we, we, I mean, everything's a cycle, like we know this, but I think we're starting to see more interest. I mean, I went right into startups too. Like I, not, not to say startups and small businesses are the same, but I went right into startups out of college because I knew that I would be able to get more hands-on experience. And I think it really aligns with this like entrepreneurial spirit of this generation.

Justin Harlan:
Which it is interesting. I mean, probably another conversation for another day, but it's interesting to think about everything you just named that's true of a small business and how the structure of that company, prioritizing those things is far easier to be a fully remote company than the big companies that have all of these investments in office spaces that they're now feeling stressed to utilize and make good use of. So that's interesting to think about. Okay. As we're wrapping up, what's your remote work hot take? What's your big, bold statement about remote work that you want the world to know?

Danielle Farage:
I think people are just never going to be obsolete. A lot of the time people confuse remote work with remote only. And I think that if you design for a person, like if you design for a job or a company to feel human, naturally those points of humanness are like going to emerge. It was very true in that really great remote work experience that I had of like, as long as we value DEI and here are the ways in which we actually do that, the human element was that much more tangible. Like it just naturally happened. Like the learning development, the investment in people, the psychological safety, like all of it follows. So I think if you like place value on something and follow it up with action, it's naturally, that's naturally going to happen.

Justin Harlan:
And in turn, companies are going to benefit, which, you know, when you center the human being and the person and build structures and systems that allow them to thrive in the way that they deem best, that's only going to pull out their best stuff, which is going to allow your company to excel and make money or sell widgets or whatever else your company does.

Danielle Farage:
And be magnetic.

Justin Harlan:
Yes, exactly. And more people are going to want to work there. We're so grateful that you joined us today and this week. If folks that are listening want to check out the content that we develop over the next couple of days, please visit us at TulsaPluggedIn.com or go follow us on social media at Tulsa Remote on just about every platform. Danielle, thanks so much for joining us today. Really appreciate your time and looking forward to all that we have in store together this week.

Danielle Farage:
Thank you. And find me at DanielleFarage.com and on LinkedIn.

Justin Harlan:
Thanks again.

Danielle Farage: 

Thank you.