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Transcript

Justin Harlan:
Hey, I'm Justin Harlan, Managing Director for Tulsa Remote. We're here with another episode of Remote With. Today, we are at Fulton Street Coffee and Books right in the heart of Greenwood. And I am so excited to talk to Ryan Fitzgibbon, who is one of our first 100 members at Tulsa Remote. So I don't know if you knew that, but...

Ryan Fitzgibbon:
I did not.

Justin Harlan:
I'm dropping knowledge straight out of the gate. It's so good to be here with you.

Ryan Fitzgibbon:
Likewise. Thanks for having me.

Justin Harlan:
Yeah. Looking forward to kind of diving into your journey to Tulsa, how you've made the most of your time here. And then definitely want to talk about your book too, which I know is hot off the presses and you're about to start your book tour. So let's get started. You know, in 2019, I suppose it was when you probably found out about Tulsa Remote. Where were you? What were you doing? Tell me a little bit about like, you know, the journey that had led you to that moment before you found out about the program.

Ryan Fitzgibbon:
I was in Michigan, back where I grew up, actually. I had lived in Brooklyn, New York for six years before, from 2013 to 2019, essentially running a print magazine. So I started a magazine called Hello Mr. for gay men and that started... actually, before that, when I was living in San Francisco working at a design consulting firm called IDEO in Palo Alto and was living in the Castro and, you know, newly out, young 20-something... like, obsessed with magazines and... and print... and didn't really see myself reflected in that world and in the magazines that were currently on the shelf in, you know, 2012, 2011. And so that was kind of the impetus that started, you know, what became Hello Mr., which took me to New York. And, you know, I ran that in the publishing mecca for the six years and across 10 issues of print until basically, you know, that span of 2012 to 2018, about... it was sort of the pre-marriage equality to having marriage equality to having, you know, rights starting to be questioned and stripped away again. And it was a really challenging time, but it was also just, you know, an ambitious venture running a print magazine and it's trying to, you know, hold my ground and, and stay true to what I believed was still needed on stands. 

Ryan Fitzgibbon:
And so, you know, after kind of all the impact and all the stories and growing a team, I realized that, like, I really needed to kind of pull back and reevaluate and also rebuild sort of my own foundation and financial stability and figure out what was next, because it was most of my 20s basically dedicated to this thing. And so I decided to take a step back and move away from New York, even though it had become so much of my identity and this magazine was so much wrapped into my identity… and have really lovely parents who were gracious and welcome me back in in my 30s.

Justin Harlan:
This is in Michigan?

Ryan Fitzgibbon:
In Michigan, yeah.

Justin Harlan:

Let’s pause for one second there. You kind of hinted upon representation being some of the purpose behind starting the magazine. But dig into that more. Like, what were you hoping to accomplish through establishing the magazine? Because I know a lot of that probably comes back as we get into the book. But yeah, what was at the heart of kind of the purpose behind that magazine for you?

Ryan Fitzgibbon:
It was 2011, essentially, when I started developing the concept for what it was. And I was living in San Francisco when Proposition 8 in California for marriage equality was just starting to become a conversation. But it was all pre-national marriage equality and the conversations that were being had and that were getting the spotlight were really about a really heteronormative depiction of what, you know, marriage and love looked like. And I think that in my early 20s, it was so much more than that. And I think we also want to strive for more than just fitting into boxes. And so I, you know, was doing my research of sort of the LGBT magazines and publications that existed. And they all kind of had a very similar flavor. And I thought I could shake things up and change that a little bit and launched the first issue in 2013 after really, you know, putting a lot of effort into making the brand and getting, you know, the community built around it. And it just took off. And from 2013 to 2018 was producing biannual issues of stories and ended up publishing over 600 stories from all kinds of incredible names. I mean, we had Candy Wiley on one of our covers and Perfume Genius and Grizzly Bear and like really amazing musicians, artists, and writers and talent that I think just started to kind of snowball.

Ryan Fitzgibbon:
Yeah, it was an incredible time. I think it also just was bookended by a lot of political uncertainty and presidential eras that just made it really challenging to continue to do something that wasn't necessarily lucrative, but that was a passion project and that I feel really needed to exist.

Justin Harlan:
I would think that, you know, when we talk about representation, too, I mean, someone who is running an LGBT magazine winding up in Tulsa, Oklahoma, probably is not what's like popping up in people's minds when they think of Tulsans.

Ryan Fitzgibbon:
Yeah.

Justin Harlan:

So let's let's kind of talk about your journey here. Like, how did you find out about Tulsa? Going from Brooklyn to Tulsa is a huge change. I know there was a stop at your parents in between. But where were you when you found out about Tulsa Remote? Like what kind of sparked the decision to apply and then ultimately make the move in early 2020?

Ryan Fitzgibbon:
So back to catching my breath in Michigan after, you know, being in New York for six years and traveling around a lot, just kind of needed to reevaluate. And so I was back home, my hometown, Midland, Michigan, and was watching the CBS Sunday morning show one day with my parents. And there was a segment on Tulsa Remote. And I had my laptop right there. And I just pulled it out immediately and applied while it was still airing.

Justin Harlan:
That happens more than you think. Like we can, we see these little, you know, tick ups and totally correlated with media or a big news thing and, you know, people applying. So you're not alone in that
.
Ryan Fitzgibbon:
Yeah. I mean, it felt very new. Like there hadn't been a lot of programs like this. There certainly are now. But, you know, in 2019, I was looking for my next thing and it just kind of happened to find me. And so, you know, by the end of 2019, around the holidays, I came out to visit Tulsa and see if I could get a vibe check and feel, you know, the way that I wanted to feel in the next place that I chose to live. And it was kind of an immediate, like, that's, that's the spot. Let's try this out. And I was packing up and made my way here for February 1st, 2020.

Justin Harlan:
And what were your expectations? Like when you talk about the vibe check, like what were, what were you expecting in terms of vibes here? And then how did your visit actually match up with your expectations?

Ryan Fitzgibbon:
Yeah. Great question. I mean, obviously living on the coast, you know, for over a decade and then,going back home to a pretty rural town of 30,000 or so people, I didn't want to feel like I was backpedaling to my hometown and sort of the way that I felt growing up, closeted, but as a gay, you know, youth. And I guess I don't know what I expected or wanted to expect or feel. But I knew that, you know, the people that I initially met in the first 48 hours, or however long I was here were like really lined and I think really sold kind of an energy that exists in Tulsa that once you're here, you really feel, which is that there's a lot of opportunity for growth and a lot that needs to be still discussed and still really analyzed and healed. But that there's space for people who are energized and motivated to be a part of something really powerful and really impactful if you commit.

Justin Harlan:
Love that, love that. And you got that sense even early on in your first couple days visiting, ultimately moved, and then obviously March of 2020 everything changed both for the program but also, you know, just as we know it. What was being here during the pandemic like especially for a program like Tulsa remote that is, you know, really centered around community and networking and meeting others and everybody kind of has this shared aspect of life of relocating to a new place and then finding this new version of themselves together? How did you do that? And by the way, I wasn't here during that time. So I'm also interested in hearing what was life like then? I mean, how were we building community at the program?

Ryan Fitzgibbon:
Yeah, I had been here for maybe six weeks, not even. And so I'm fortunate to have a really strong orientation and a group of people that really know, really welcomed me in and had like a locked-in community through Tulsa remote. But on the day of lockdown, I got really sick actually. And it was March 16th, 2020. 

Ryan Fitzgibbon:
And I woke up Covered in sweat and was sick for 10 days. And so I truly thought that I was the first person in Oklahoma to get COVID. And I'd come, you know, not directly from Brooklyn, but had come, you know, recently into town. And through that, you know, experience and over the couple of months after that healing from that, still not knowing sort of what had happened, there was an incredible support around me and sort of neighbors that were part of Tulsa Remote as well that would like, supply me safely with groceries and food. And I felt really taken care of, even if we were all very isolated and very disconnected. We still had monthly Zoom calls, and they were catering dinners and helping us feel really connected when we were meeting up intentionally.

It was around the end of May, so almost exactly four years ago, I found out after visiting a doctor that I was, I had seroconverted to HIV positive. And so that first week of lockdown and my second month only in Tulsa, I, my whole, everything was changing for me. My body was completely, you know, rewiring. It really propelled and forced me into, into action. And it was also around the time of Trump having a rally here and basically in the wake of George Floyd's murder. And so there was a lot happening just, and just before the anniversary of the Tulsa race massacre. So it was all within this month of just really intense energy in Tulsa, but also a spotlight that was shining on the stories that weren't told. And so I think that really motivated me and, and deepened my connection to the community and to being involved and being really, you know, committed to staying here and doing the work.

Justin Harlan:
Yeah. And, you know, 2020 was a hard year for all of us. And then you layer on that news that you got. I can't imagine the weight that comes with that. How did you use that year to then kind of help you dictate how you're going to get involved and make a difference and leave your mark? Because it sounds like some of those little moments along the way helped kind of guide you on the journey that you experienced here. Talk through some of that and how you've gotten involved in the community.

Ryan Fitzgibbon:
Yeah, I actually, you know, part of what I was also doing, you know, as I was coming here just as a side project, personal stuff was to, I was developing my own podcast about endings and about things that didn't last. And it was, you know, essentially my way of grieving something that I was leaving behind, but also starting a business and closing it and being intentional about that. And so I was really kind of, in retrospect, navigating a career in journalism.

And, you know, I had been a publisher of a magazine, wearing a lot of hats, but didn't really consider myself like investigative journalist or a journalist, but definitely supportive of, of journalism. And through that time and, you know, through the May - June, 2020 months was introduced and connected to Nehemiah Frank, who's the founder of the Black Wall Street Times here. And, you know, essentially offered support in whatever way made sense because journalists were coming in from all over the place to cover, you know, the story of Tulsa and Greenwood, but the voices that are here that have lived it, the descendants, you know, that's, you know, the crucial story to tell. And so we ended up collaborating, working on a newspaper and eventually a magazine as well to commemorate and, you know, really talk about the story of the, the massacre and the, you know, hundredth anniversary of that. And so that was kind of like one of the first real strong connections and friendships that I made.

Justin Harlan:
Which is again like going back to the magazine, I mean it sounds like there's there's a pull inside of you to like tell the stories of folks that have not had their story told. You go back to the magazine that's certainly true at least what I heard from you just a minute ago. And then coming here and contributing to the black wall street times and telling the stories around the centennial. Where do you think that pull comes from you know inside you?

Ryan Fitzgibbon:
I mean putting the book together that I know and that was just released… my name's on the cover, my name's on the spine, and it was really uncomfortable because there's 108 people in the book. And every magazine that I’ve ever, you know, put together is a collection of so many voices and so many stories. And you know there's a curational aspect to it. There's editing but there's really just like, for me, creating a space that I didn't have that I think more people need to be afforded for telling their own stories. Again, none of this is super lucrative, but it's something I think needs to exist. And so, yeah, I think that's kind of where that came from.

Justin Harlan:
I love it. Let's get into the book a bit. So why did you want to do this? Where did the idea start? And just talk me through kind of the backstory of how you came out with the book. Tell us what it's called. And yeah, let's dig into that.

Ryan Fitzgibbon:
Yeah, so the book is called “A Great Gay Book: Stories of Growth, Belonging and Other Queer Possibilities.” And it's a coffee table book. It's a massive collection of 432 pages, 108 voices in the book. A lot of it is sort of the greatest hits and republished content from the magazine Hello Mr. that I published. You know, I kind of had it on the back burner. Obviously, it's a really rich archive of content to have like on my drive folders. And when I decided to stay basically in Tulsa and, you know, after 2020, my year in Tulsa Remote and into 2021, I was encouraged to apply for the Tulsa Artist Fellowship as well through some of this work and just, you know, really committing to publishing and telling stories in Tulsa. And when I was accepted into that in 2021, it was kind of like the perfect runway to focus on one project and go really deep on it. And this was just sitting there waiting for me to represent. I think in a lot of ways, I hadn't fully grieved it. Like I said, I came with an idea for a project to sort of work through it and let it go. But I think there was still so much to be done. 

And with, you know, the anti-LGBT legislation, book ban, censorship, and a lot that's happening in Oklahoma over the last few years, but just nationally as well, it's crucial that we tell our stories. And I have the platform and the privileges to do that and was kind of an easy pitch to put it in front of a publisher and get some attention. And I'm so grateful for Abrams who's published the book for championing it and me in the whole process of doing that.

Justin Harlan:
I love it. Congratulations. I mean, huge accomplishment and proud to know that you as a Tulsa remoter are behind it. I read this last month's edition of Tulsa People and there's a little snippet in there of you. And one of the quotes really stood out to me where you said something along the lines of the Tulsa landscape is really what made this book possible. Which again, going back to how people think about Tulsa, I think would likely surprise a lot of people. And I'm curious to hear a little bit more about that. What's underneath that quote? What about Tulsa and the landscape here has afforded you the opportunity to put this book together and get it out to the world?

Ryan Fitzgibbon:
Yeah. I think in the most simple way, I was able to turn the volume down on the distractions that happened when I was living in New York, when I was living in San Francisco, when I was still, you know, trying to figure out what was next. And I was able to kind of, kind of change my whole scenario and environment to focus and to be really clear about the vision that I think I had sort of gone away from and through, you know, the community and the sort of repetition of, of work that was starting to happen in, in Tulsa around storytelling. It just started to make sense that like, this was the place where I was going to get it done and actually follow through with it and be able to meet the deadline of getting it to print.

Justin Harlan:
Yeah, which is often, I think, understated, just the ways in which Tulsa opens up time, even just reducing your commute time or little things throughout your day that then add up and you have more time and headspace to think about passion projects or whatever you have thought about pursuing on the side. I think even just the quality of life that's afforded here, not to mention the networking and relationships, but that additional time helps you to really pursue something that you might not have been able to in other cities. I think that's a huge underpinning benefit of the city. I'm curious the role that the Tulsa Remote community continues to play in your life today. And how are you still connected to the community? Are there folks that are still in your life from back in February of 2020? What role does Tulsa Remote have in your life? Because we have a goal, obviously, of, you know, seeing you less and less the longer that you're here, which means you've got like real stable relationships and organizations that you're connected with and don't necessarily need our support. So just curious from your perspective, like what role does Tulsa Remote play for you now?

Ryan Fitzgibbon:
Yeah, I mean, actually, so many of the initial people from 2020 are either still here or still very much present in my life. So that's a huge win just on its own to have those connections. And yeah, it's wild that I've been here for a little over four years now. But it just really shows tha, it was the right decision for me and that there's a lot of support to, you know, continue to develop your practice and develop, you know, connections and invest in your future. Cause I think that the, you know, overhead is lower in places that I've lived and it's more accessible to do the things that like, I didn't think I could do in New York.

Justin Harlan:
Well, you've been here four years now, so hopefully you consider yourself a Tulsan. If not, congratulations, you're officially a Tulsan. I think it's like, yeah, right around this mark. What does it mean? I mean, you're about to go on this book tour. What does it mean to you to be, you know, traveling the country, talking about your book, having that identity of Tulsa wrapped around it?

Ryan Fitzgibbon:
Yeah, it's actually really been a powerful thread through the book and through creating the book and really reflecting on, you know, how I was raised and where I was raised in the environment in Michigan, and then, you know, meeting and connecting with so many people here who have similar but different sets of, you know, trauma and childhood, you know, issues growing up queer in a rural place as we're having, we're entering into, you know, another election and having conversations about censorship bans legislation. There are some themes in the book that definitely, you know, allude to the type of religious traumas and, you know, oppression that happened to LGBT people that I think is really important to shine light on and not be afraid to talk about because I think that there are, you know, plenty of affirming spaces that do exist in places like Tulsa and they also need to be celebrated. And the conversation is really important. And a lot of times, you know, places in the middle get overlooked. And so having done my time on both coasts and then committed to the last, you know, for the last four years to Tulsa, I think it's going to be a major point of conversation on the book tour when I'm back in Brooklyn and when I'm back in San Francisco. And I'm excited to hear what people have to say and what questions they have about, or maybe curiosities of their own about leaving the coast. Who knows?

Justin Harlan:
Love it. Well, you know, our website, feel free to direct them there. We're always taking applications. Thanks for all you've done for the Tulsa community. I know, I mean, in many ways, it feels like you're kind of just getting started. This is a huge step in that journey. Wish you nothing but the best of luck as you go and tell the country about your book and about Tulsa. It just seems like there's a lot of interesting through lines around representation and voice and empowering stories that haven't yet been told. And I think there's certainly a lot of that across our country, but certainly too here in Tulsa. And thank you for lifting those voices up and telling the stories that need to be told and telling your own with us today. So thanks for taking a chance on Tulsa and looking forward to hearing what's next in your adventure here.

Ryan Fitzgibbon:
I appreciate it. Thanks so much for giving me this ti