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Have you ever wondered what it's like to rediscover America after a decade abroad? Join host Justin Harlan as he sits down with Joshua Ogden Davis, a Tulsa Remote member who spent 10 years in China before finding his way to Tulsa, Oklahoma. In this episode of "Remote With," Joshua shares his journey of personal and professional growth in the heart of America.

Discover:

• How Joshua's whirlwind career in China led him to Tulsa Remote
• The unexpected ways Tulsa has shaped Joshua's view of modern America
• Why Tulsa's size and community make it the perfect place for personal reinvention
• How institutional support for entrepreneurship creates unique opportunities in Tulsa
• The value of "groundedness" after years of constant change and movement

Whether you're considering a move or simply curious about life in Tulsa, this episode offers a fresh perspective on finding community and purpose in an unexpected place. Tune in to hear Joshua's inspiring story and learn why Tulsa might be the perfect backdrop for your own journey of rediscovery and growth.

Transcript

Justin Harlan:
Hi, I'm Justin Harlan, Managing Director for Tulsa Remote. We're here with another episode of Remote With in the beautiful Prism Cafe, and I'm joined by Josh Ogden Davis. Appreciate you being here.

Joshua Ogden Davis:
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Justin Harlan:
Yeah, I'm so excited to dig into this conversation with you, learn a little bit about what brought you to Tulsa, how you're enjoying your time here, what your plans are for the future, and yeah, just get to know you along the way. So I really appreciate the time. Tell me why we're in Prism Cafe. What are we doing here this morning and what place does this have in your heart?

Joshua Ogden Davis:
So Prism Cafe is a new fixture of North Tulsa, very close to downtown. It's run by a good friend, Amy Hunter, who's also the chef. It's just a place that has done a great job of developing not only really great food, but also a great community. Like we were talking just before we turned the cameras on about how everyone who comes here knows each other. You show up once and you're a regular and it's a great spot that just sort of feels like home in a way that a lot of places in Tulsa really make you feel like you're welcome as soon as you walk into them. So it's a place that I come back to time and time again and I'm happy to share it with you.

Justin Harlan:
Love it, yeah. And I know that's a huge part of your story here in Tulsa too. By the way, this episode is not sponsored by Prism Cafe in any way. So talk to me about where you were when you found out about Tulsa Remote. What were you doing? I know that you have such an interesting background that's kind of led you to Tulsa. So let's learn a little bit about that first. Where were you? What were you up to? And kind of talk to me about life before 2022, I think it was that you made the move.

Joshua Ogden Davis:
Yeah, to go way back before 2022. In 2010, when I left university, I just went to China on a sort of a lark for 10 years. And then in 2020, I came back during the pandemic and it wasn't really a choice. I didn't really want to leave, but I had to come back. I didn't know when I could return to China or if I would be able to return to China. So I was living in my tiny little North Texas hometown for two years, sort of in limbo thinking, can I go back to China or should I just really cut bait and build a life here in the United States? When I finally decided, okay, well, let's build a life in the States. I'm not going to sit around sitting on my hands for two more years waiting to go back to China. I wanted to find a place that would be a great reintroduction into American life. And in some ways, not even a reintroduction, just an introduction, because I left right after university. So I'd never been a full-fledged adult here in this country. So I wanted to find a place that wasn't going to price me out. And I wanted someplace that was also going to be interesting and have a lot of dimensions to it. Because I was already in my little hometown, but it's 25,000 people. I know most of them. There's not a lot going on there. So there's not a lot of room for growth. So I was looking for that perfect space of not prohibitive, like sort of a welcoming place that's achievable, but also is rich enough to have a lot of experiences and opportunities for growth. I don't remember who first told me about Tulsa Remote. I think it's just sort of in the general consciousness these days. But once I started looking into the program, I thought, well, this could be nice. I didn't think that much about it. So I shot off an application and was surprised that there was an interview happening very quickly. And then I came down to Tulsa myself to check it out. And I just really liked the comfort and the richness of the place. So when I did get an offer from Tulsa Remote, what really excited me about the offer, more so than the money, everyone talks about the money, like it's the headlines, like $10,000 to move to Tulsa. But the more valuable thing for me was the instant community. There's a Slack channel of thousands of people, Tulsa Remoters, who have come here from all over the place. And so I knew that Tulsa was going to be a place I could walk into with a ready-made community and with these opportunities for growth and making friends and making connections and exploring all these facets of American life that I hadn't explored before. So it really seemed like the perfect opportunity.

Justin Harlan:
Well, I'd love to back up just a bit. So we can't just gloss over 10 years in China. So let's dig in. Let's dig in a bit there. What brought you to China? What were you doing over there? Talk to me about life overseas, because then you mentioned kind of this desire to reestablish yourself in America and kind of relearn America. And I definitely want to dig into that too, but maybe set the ground floor for like, what brought you to China to begin with? And what were you doing over there?

Joshua Ogden Davis:
So in the US, before I went, I was getting a master's degree in classical music history. And I decided eventually, I just didn't have the passion for it. I love it. I still listen to classical music all the time. I've joined a local orchestra. I'm into it. But the world of academia, especially in the humanities, just wasn't for me. And so I fled as far away as I could go. I had a friend who happened to be in China, and they kept inviting me. So I eventually went. I started off teaching English like everybody who looks like me in China starts off doing, but I always had that drive to think about what's the next thing? What are we developing here? I'm not just sitting here, I'm trying to do something, I'm trying to build and grow in some way. And so I was teaching myself Mandarin and after a couple years, my Mandarin got good enough that I could make the choice either I stay in china and continue developing this Mandarin or I'll go back to the States and just start over completely fresh again. And I decided to try to develop a career in China. I went to a lot of things let's give it a quick rundown. I went to a wedding company first where I was the only English speaker in the company. And I was doing a lot of telemarketing, surprisingly, calling up a bunch of potential collaborators in China, in Mandarin, trying to get them to collaborate with us. Then I went on a dating show because the boss of that company wanted me to go as publicity. And then when I was on the dating show, an event marketing company in Beijing saw me and called me up. And so I went to go work for them for a year. I got pushed by a competitor and did event marketing for luxury cars for four years in Beijing. And then the corporate world just seemed really stifling to me.

Joshua Ogden Davis:
So I wrote a book with a friend of mine about cross-cultural communication. And then based on the book, we got a podcast deal. And based on the podcast deal, I got a personal podcast deal. And then I got a video deal. And so then I started a company with some friends of mine and we were making educational content. And I was the puppeteer for like a little bilingual Sesame Street-style program that we were making. And that's sort of the vibe that I was in when the pandemic hit. And my sort of freelance situation was no longer supported, legally speaking, by the Department of Immigration. So I had to go. But it was a real whirlwind 10 years of lots of different stuff and constant learning, constant growth, constant exposure to new things.

Justin Harlan:
Yeah, it sounds like it. I mean, I feel like we could dive into an entire episode, with each of those business opportunities that you had already. So you went from weddings to events to podcasting to puppeteering. Am I getting that right?

Joshua Ogden Davis:
Sure. Yeah.

Justin Harlan:
With some corporate world stale stuff in the middle.

Joshua Ogden Davis:
Yeah.

Justin Harlan:
It sounds like, I mean.

Joshua Ogden Davis:
To be fair, it was actually a lot of fun, but it's sort of the constant, like where we care so much about the brand and like, this is, we develop from the time to get up to the time to go to bed. We're worried about the profit margin. It was like, I feel like I need a little bit more.

Justin Harlan:
Yeah. Something that's like calling you,to something bigger, more aligned with values, and making a difference. Yeah. And what did you, what kind of music did you do? We have that in common. I was also a music major that decided that wasn't a path that I probably had a career in. So out of the business degree, but what kind of music did you study?

Joshua Ogden Davis:
Yeah, so back in the day, I was a euphonium player starting in sixth grade. And when I got into university, I was originally music ed. And then I realized I don't see myself as a band director. So I switched to music theory as a more general track. And then I got invited to graduate school at UT Austin. And then much to everyone's chagrin, I decided to leave after one year, but mostly focused on classical music, classical music history. When I was in China, some friends invited me to join a punk band and they wanted me to play the bass. And I said, no, I don't play string instruments. It's not really my thing. And they were like, no, it's a punk band. You can play bass in a punk band. I was like, I don't know. I've never done it before. Turns out anyone can play bass in a punk band. It's extremely simple. So that got me started doing bands in Guangzhou. And then I just really sort of left it by the wayside for a few years for the rest of my time in China, basically. Then after I came to Tulsa and I got sort of set up again, I thought, well, I would love to dive back into this. My neighbor's a musician. I think everyone's neighbor in Tulsa is a musician. There's that many musicians around. The chances are high your neighbor is a musician. And so he came over, we started jamming. I got a tuba for myself at the end of last year. And there's a wonderful local orchestra, civilian orchestra, we call it, the Tulsa People's Orchestra. And they just really happened to need a tuba. And I happened to meet the director at a networking event. And he said, we need you to come and play tuba with us. So I went and I've been there for a few months. And it's a fantastic experience.

Justin Harlan:
So you're starting to get into how you've gotten involved here in Tulsa. So let's start from the beginning. You arrive in Tulsa. You mentioned that you applied to Tulsa Remote. You got in. You came and visited. You fell in love with the community and opportunities here. So talk a little bit about what life was like when you arrived. How did you get started with your niche, both within the Tulsa Remote community and offerings and then even outside of it?

Joshua Ogden Davis:
So when I first came, things went exactly according to plan. There were lots of free events from Tulsa Remote, which was really great for me because I was still working nights. I was working for a Chinese company and they wanted me to sync up with their morning hours. So from 8 to 11 every night, I was at home on the clock, which would normally make it extremely difficult to develop a social life because when everyone else is just ready to start being social, I'm like, no, I got to go. I got to go to work. So it was great to have these Tulsa Remote events where they could be dinner time, they could be happy hour time. they could be on the weekends. And it was an event where everyone was expecting to go and meet people, and expecting to network, and expecting to build their community, and expecting to experience something about Tulsa. And it made that whole part of it easy and accessible to me in a way that it absolutely would not have been if I was in Kansas City or San Francisco or wherever trying to be social when I have to be at home by 7:30. But what really surprised me, my network and the opportunities that I found expanded beyond the Tulsa remote community fairly quickly.

Justin Harlan:
What was your mindset or what actions did you take individually to make some of that happen? And then talk a bit about how you have gotten involved.

Joshua Ogden Davis:
It did require a little bit of being proactive, but the Tulsa remote community, not to sound like this is an advertisement, really made it easy because there's a big emphasis on community engagement and on volunteerism in the TR community. And so I started volunteering with reading partners, which is something I know that you've personally been very involved with in your past. And I learned about that through Tulsa Remote. I started working with Big Brothers Big Sisters, which I was at a wine-tasting Tulsa Remote event and they had a recruiter from Big Brothers Big Sisters there. And that really sort of put it front of mind for me. And those have been incredibly rewarding and engaging experiences that have made me feel much more tied into the Tulsa community and into just really sort of feeling an investment in this space. There was, I think the weekly TR emails like what's going on in Tulsa this week or the community voice are just great little sort of reminders, especially for someone like me, who's at home by myself working all the time. Like, hey, this stuff is going out. Maybe you should put it on your calendar. It's really sort of like a concierge of stuff you can do. And as long as you take advantage of those things and invest in them and you're willing to show up and be genuine and be involved, your community will very quickly expand into the local community.

Justin Harlan:
That's awesome. Well, that sounds like exactly how we hope it goes because obviously we want to be very high touch as you come into town and kind of help you get here. And we really focus on those first 90 days. But then everything we do from an event standpoint and from communication is really in an effort to try to get you outside of that Tulsa Remote bubble. We actually see it as success if we see you less and less as your time in Tulsa increases, because that means you found other ways to get plugged in and other people to meet, and other organizations to give your time and passion to. So it sounds like in your case, that has certainly worked. And it's awesome to hear some of the strategies behind the scenes coming to life in the ways that we hope it would. I have to ask, so you go to happy hours and then you show up at work from 8 to 11. I mean, did that ever bite you in the butt, or what's going on there?

Joshua Ogden Davis:
No comment.

Justin Harlan:
Yeah, that's probably smart.

Justin Harlan:
It sounds like you were good at your job though. So sure. Might be onto something there, you know?

Joshua Ogden Davis:
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's, maybe it's a different, a different, maybe you can try that in your work as well.

Justin Harlan:
So let's dive into this whole like concept of rediscovering America. Cause I think it's It's super interesting. Maybe give me a little bit of insight into how Tulsa has shaped your view of America 2.0. Because you were here, then you left, and then you were gone for 10 years, came back during the pandemic, which obviously is an interesting time to rediscover anything. But I am interested in what has Tulsa shown you about what America offers and represents?

Joshua Ogden Davis:
One thing that I was really anxious about or almost intimidated by when I decided to start living in America full-time and really make a good old college try of it, was I'd been abroad for 10 years and I was hearing about American culture and politics through the news media, often foreign news media. And it really, I mean, I left in 2010 and I came back in 2020. What a decade to have sort of been, you know, off the group chat for a while.

Joshua Ogden Davis:
So coming back, I was like, what is this gonna be? Like, what is, how, is this gonna be a comfortable place? Like, is this gonna be workable? And I think Tulsa is a fascinating place because some people say it's the South. Some people say it's the Midwest. I don't have a horse in this race. So being in Tulsa, especially with the Tulsa Remote Program, which brings in people from all over. And Tulsa was already, people were calling it like the Austin of Oklahoma. It was already a pretty diverse place. So there's already a great blending of different ways of thinking, of different opinions, and of different backgrounds already in Tulsa. And Tulsa Remote has accelerated that. It was a great little microcosm to really see with my own eyes and hear with my own ears, all these perspectives and all these things that I've been hearing about on the news, all these apparently very opposing sort of, of thoughts and ideologies to meet people who embody them, to meet people who really espouse them and be able to talk to them and to really understand, you know, what's behind this. What leads to this, where is everybody really? Because the news, you know, they're gonna tell you what they can tell you on the news, and depending on which news network it is, they're gonna tell you what they want you to hear. But it was really refreshing for me to just come into contact with such a broad spectrum of humanity from the United States and to really see the situation on the ground and to see the hearts and minds of the people. And it really made me sort of dispelled all my fears that I'd had from, from being away for so long in terms of this is a place where you can develop real connections. You can have a great sense of community. You can build something. You know, when I was abroad, what I could do and what I could interact with and the paths available to me were defined entirely by the fact that I was not from there. And Tulsa is a place where I'm just constantly surrounded by all different kinds of people who are defining their own paths. And it's really something, especially Tulsa being the size that it is, being in the situation that it is, a state of rapid growth and a state of deep community involvement. And there's a great interest in community-centered organizations and entrepreneurship and things like that. It's really a place where people are creating the life that they want to live. And I learned that, you know, that that's available to a lot of people in a way that maybe it's not abroad or maybe in other parts of the States. And that's also available to me. And that's been really refreshing. So I've really loved digging into sort of really being able to decide what kind of life I want to lead and knowing that I can start building that here in Tulsa.

Justin Harlan:
What do you think makes Tulsa unique in that sense? Like, why is this place different and allows you to kind of build that path or, or, you know, define your, define your journey? One thing I want to pull out that you just said that I think is so beautiful is I oftentimes, I think Oklahoma, Tulsa, is portrayed as like a very one thought, lack of diversity, one-sided state or city. And you just really tapped into, I think the beauty of this place, which is like diversity of thought. There's a Tulsa remote member that I've spoken with about this very situation, which she is a gay Asian liberal from California. And really I think in her time in Tulsa has figured out a new definition of diversity because in California, she primarily hung out with gay Asian liberals and considered that a very diverse set of friends. However, it was really just people that were agreeing with her, shared her values and passions. And one thing that really stuck with me that you just said is in coming here, you're able to seek to understand others. And she talks about moving to Tulsa and her neighbor being a Republican white cowboy.

Justin Harlan:
And just like that's building up a friend group that looks different than her and thinks different than her is really diversity in the way that we understand it and know it. And that there's been so much that she's learned just about humans and understanding each other and building perspective and really seeking to then have dialogue as opposed to just reinforcing your own truth.

Joshua Ogden Davis:
Right.

Justin Harlan:
You know, I think that there's a lot of beauty in that. And you just described Tulsa in, I think, such a perfect way that the middle of the country here, I think, is often portrayed in one way. But when you see it and feel it and live in it, it certainly comes to life much differently. What do you think Tulsa provides folks that is, you know, that allows them to kind of rediscover purpose or set on a new journey for themselves? What is it that's unique about this landscape that makes that happen for people?

Joshua Ogden Davis:
Yeah, it's a bit. Well, I should acknowledge one of the things I glossed over and didn't talk about directly was I mentioned my experience abroad was a time in which everything that was available to me was defined by the fact that I was a foreigner. And now that I'm in the States, I'm not a foreigner. But I mean, the story you just mentioned touched on this as well. Well, there are people who have been born and raised in the United States, and their opportunities are defined by any number of aspects about their personality. And they can be shoehorned into certain roles or be thought about in certain ways, and that can be a really big challenge. And I think one of the ways that Tulsa has addressed that is such a huge institutional investment in entrepreneurship, in social involvement. But from what I've seen sort of on the outside, if you have an idea, it's very likely that there is an institution that is willing to support you and push that forward. And in the process of pushing that forward, you're going to be in a room with everyone. I go to the Attento Capital First Fridays.It's a great happy hour.

Justin Harlan:
You're no longer working at night.

Joshua Ogden Davis:
No longer working at night. So it's legal now. And there are often pitches from entrepreneurs. I mean, pitches like people will speak about what they're doing and the kind of issues that they're involved in. And it's an incredible variety of things. And it's an incredible variety of people who are doing these things. And as they're explaining themselves, they're explaining themselves to a room full of everyone, Like just an incredible cross-section of all different, you know  ways of thinking in all different areas of the United States and, and abroad, partially in my case, who are in the room who are attentive, who are applauding and oftentimes getting engaged as well. I think that the institutional investment in creating that kind of community creates these spaces that make that sort of cross-boundary communication and collaboration possible. In a way that just doesn't arise naturally. People in general tend to on their own separate into tribes and you know, it takes some sort of opposing force to bring them together and to allow the good things and the growth that can come out of combining these different tribes and allowing people to see each other. You need some third force that is allowing for that to happen. And that's specifically what I see here in Tulsa. There's a huge institutional investment in that.

Justin Harlan:
I love it. Well, I mean, you have a great synopsis of what the city has to offer, not only from, you know, I think the beauty of how folks can kind of live out the American dream, but also what we can understand about America as a whole. And you've only been here a couple of years. And so to hear yourself, you know, it's almost like the things you experienced as a foreigner overseas, you're not experiencing here, which is also a beautiful thing to hear as, you know, someone who's leading a program that's bringing folks in that are often trying to get integrated. It sounds like you've done so beautifully. So what's next for you? Where are you headed in that journey of life that you're describing? And I know that you have intentions of sticking around here in Tulsa for a few years or at least a few years, but just wondering, like, what's next for Josh? Where what's on the horizon for you?

Joshua Ogden Davis:
Well, career-wise right now, I'm supporting myself being a little Internet personality in China, making a video English class for Chinese video websites. That's my contract work. But I've just finished an online boot camp in data science. I know that even in Tulsa, there's the Atlas School, which provides similar programs. I wanted something remote and self-paced, but I've always had my eye sort of on the Atlas School. It's a great opportunity for anyone who's looking to get into tech. And...

Joshua Ogden Davis:
That's career-wise, that's where I'm headed. But as I do that career search, I'm looking primarily at remote roles or Tulsa-based roles because, after a decade or a decade and a half of floating around different megacities in China or not knowing where I'm going to go in the States and just feeling that sense of being very ungrounded, I'm really looking to explore what groundedness looks like. I think in the past, especially when I was in China, always had the expectation that I was going to go somewhere else. I was going to do something new. I was going to have completely new experiences.

Joshua Ogden Davis:
And I sort of developed maybe a little bit of a fear of staying in one place for a very long time. There's a large amount of FOMO that goes with that. You feel like, oh, if I'm just here, I'm missing out on everything else that's going on over there. And if I'm just doing this career, I'm missing out on all the other things I can do, all the other things that I need. But now I'm at a point in my life where I'm understanding more and more of the value that can come from a long-term relationship to a community or long-term friendships or being in one place and being around a certain set of people or issues or topics and seeing that relationship through over a longer period of time. And that's really what I'm looking to dig into here in Tulsa. I mean, I couldn't have done that in my hometown, right? Like it's a very small place and I would feel very limited. But Tulsa is at a size and at a moment in its history where I don't feel limited at all. Like I've lived in cities of 20, 30 million people before. The smallest city I lived in in China was 3 million people, which would be huge here in the States. And it was just like a small little village to them.

Joshua Ogden Davis:
So I know what it's like to be in an incredibly impossibly rich space. And I feel like Tulsa doesn't fall short. One of the things that we talked about offline before was I've gotten into dancing now. I have these hobbies that I never would have had before and I'm developing these skills and these relationships with these people and these hobbies. And it's really sort of enriching my life in a way. I am excited about sticking here in Tulsa for a little bit longer, at least a few more years, and really reaping the benefits of developing things over time and developing those relationships over time.

Justin Harlan:
I love that.

Joshua Ogden Davis:
Yeah, Tulsa is a fantastic place to do that.

Justin Harlan:
I'm tempted to have you stand up and show us some of your dance moves, but I'm also feeling a little- 

Joshua Ogden Davis:
Categorically refuse.

Justin Harlan:
Well, Josh, it's been great getting to know you a bit. But super grateful for the risk and chance that you took on Tulsa through Tulsa Remote. It sounds like you've built such a beautiful understanding of what the city has to offer. And while you were, you know, looking, you kind of forced back to the States because of the pandemic, looking to kind of redefine yourself and redefine your understanding of this country. And it sounds like Tulsa has provided such an amazing chance for you to do that, both through community and connections, but also in really tangible ways that you've given back to this place through volunteering, social connection, obviously the professional journey that you've taken as well. And just grateful for the ways, not only that you've taken a chance, but also been given back to this place, and looking forward to continuing to hear how your journey and story goes as you make that impact down the road as well. So thanks for giving us the time this morning. Really appreciate you being here and looking forward to hearing what's ahead.

Joshua Ogden Davis:
Of course, well, thank you very much for all these opportunities.